And I think a lot of folks would like them to be around. Sam Evans-Brown: Well first I want to sort of explain why what the theory is but then also throw a bit of cold water on it because I don't think there's much much logic behind it but essentially is that if fish and game were to acknowledge that there was a population of Mount lions in the state there's a chance that something like a listing under the federal Endangered Species Act might happen and then there'd be you know some they'd have to put a plan in place to protect the species there'd be you know restrictions put on development. Residents from Bedford to Berlin have been reporting sightings for years. But you can continue the conversation on Facebook or at our Web site and HP Borg. The current estimate is 2,000 - 2,700 throughout Arizona. Fish and Game then deny the evidence. Let's go now to to Kyle in Keene I believe Kyle is this Kyle Jarvis from the Keene Sentinel a former reporter and former reporter. So I don't understand really how how this this idea came to be but it is the main reason why folks believe that fishing game is is covering up the fact that there are mountain lions in the state again with no evidence. Tell us your story. We rely on readers like you to support the local, national, and international coverage on this website. He says when youve got a mountain lion in town, its kinda obvious. Sandy Hodskins, owner of West Meadow Farm in Bradford, New Hampshire, took time from shoveling Wednesday to enjoy the snow with her horse, West Wind. Peter Biello: So a little bit of nostalgia maybe for it for a better world embodied in the mountain lion. Patrick Tate: Exactly I was gonna bring that up juvenile male of. The number 1 800 8 9 2 6 4 7 7 so promised a discussion about conspiracy theories. So I want to start the program with a comment from someone who is not in the studio with us today. Fear for others and those two polarizing opinions on the situation is what I believe brings out mystique and Sam you know I take kind of a long view on this. We're gonna cue you up and bring into the program listeners in just a moment but I want to ask about the role that Mountain Lions play in the ecosystem we've been talking a lot about mountain lions traveling and being sort of hard to track as they move. "Of those three to five reports,. Now again I don't know that there's anything to that. Yes. So try to take photographs if you see something like this. Peter Biello: They make great mascots at least. Peter Biello: Ok weird question but do they make good pets. Sam Evans-Brown: What he would have stopped as well I think is way way that the reason that mountain lion kept moving is because he wasn't finding anybody. But also I think it proves the opposite point which is that sometimes they're pretty secretive because all the way from Minnesota where the where was the first time was picked up on a game camera to New York. For me as a person who's handled many bobcats and looked at many pictures Bobcat the White chin Bobcat right off is what comes out to me and then the black the the roughs on our Bobcats we'll have sometimes have black fringes on them. And so. Lions Clubs Int'l Links: LionNet NH Links 2011 -2012 . Sam Evans-Brown: You know the North America had a number of large predator species when humans first arrived in the continent. Patrick Tate: So Cougar Mountain Lion katama. That's the real story is they can't follow up on every one of these sightings. Sam Evans Brown. Rick your thoughts. I didn't see him online. And I saw you cat about four feet long from nose to tail come across from the water across the road and just leap over a six foot perimeter fence in a single bound. So so in 2011 a mountain lion was killed in a car accident in Connecticut a car hit a mountain lion and killed it. BUT THAT SAID, Id love to be proven wrong. Author of The last woman in the forest on Saturday July 13th at 7 p.m. at Warner town hall Warner historical dawg. DNA from scat or from fur, a clear track that is confirmed by an expert, or a photo that clearly shows a mountain lion. We're gonna talk about sightings in this part of the program as well we'd love to hear your story. Ecosystem Management Consultants of New England, Ask Sam, and recently fielded question about mountain lions, 10 things to do in NH this weekend: Dartmouth Dance, Hamilton De Holanda & more, Turkish restaurant in the Upper Valley aims to help those affected by recent earthquakes, RFK Jr. tells NH crowd hes considering a presidential run, Epping woman pleads guilty to threatening Michigan election official in 2020, We also hear excerpts from an interview with, Read about the most recent cougar "sightings". What do you think that. Caller: Yeah. The best documentation we have in New Hampshire suggests there hasnt been a mountain lion killed by a hunter in this state since 1885. Peter Biello: Oh okay. And just one more note about this danger question when even when you look at the states that have extended populations stable populations of mountain lions attacks are relatively rare. The engineers Dan Colgan our senior producer is Allan Grimm. I actually been interviewed a couple of times by reporters and with all due respect for the media you know facts aren't always communicated correctly. Well they are the same. So Pat you field a lot of calls about people seeing or reportedly seeing mountain lions. The most common areas to see mountain lions in Arizona are in places of rocky and mountainous terrain. Let us know your story and share your photos. We'd be inundated with scouts in the past when newspaper articles have been written about DNA and scouts. Patrick Tate: I've from all the situations I've read and learned about wildlife. Caller: I got home to my wife that a gene that you should have seen the cat. We discuss what residents may have been seeing and what breeding mountain lion pairs would mean for our ecosystem. Any sense of of whether or not mountain lions are sort of wary of more population dense areas like like the one he was describing Rick. For all the men out there that don't realize it. They don't know the direction they're going. The way that we define species has undergone a revolution with the advent of DNA testing. And you know all that. The Lions of New Hampshire: MD44 Links. But I was riding a mountain bike not far from my house. This is a machine-generated transcript, and may contain errors. So here we have you know a very qualified biologist who who found a print took a plaster cast found a scat send it to a university. Verifiable pictures recorded by the observing person or a trail camera. Well let's hear from from Sue Morse again science director for the organization keeping track. What gets confusing is when you have a large adult animal and a smaller juvenile animal of a different species you can now step start beginning talking about overlapping body weights and sizes. It's got a a smudge of black and bobcats and links just don't have that we don't have any other cards. A 140-pound male mountain lion was hit by a car and killed in 2011 in Milford, Connecticut. To date most of the pictures that have been sent in have been bobcats and other species Ive received pictures of house cats. Now Bobcat is a completely different species. www.wildlife.state.nh.us, Buy or Renew Your Saltwater Fishing License, Great Bay National Estuarine Research Reserve. All they think it traveled north through Canada up you know crossed across the Great Lakes and then and then down again through New York State. Theres a project called the Cougar Network that tracks verified sightings, and they are all around us: Massachusetts, Connecticut, Maine, New York and New Brunswick have all had verified sightings over the past 20 years or so. 1 800 8 9 2 6 4 7 7. Anyways after three weeks I finally found the image on line on a field and stream photo contest and the explanation in the end was the person that set the camera out with another individual and they believed that someone who knew of the camera location saw the similarities put the can't picture on their SD card so it looked like that camera recorded the image that is. OK. He writes As a farmer I come across many outdoorsman looking to hunt our property had a conversation with one who believed very strongly that we had mountain lions in New Hampshire. And those and that's how you can go from a story that Pat says I have nothing to say about that to a story that you know could be the first verified sighting in over 100 years. Sort of dropped onto the SD card of a camera he'd set up out in the wild. So and so the idea that they can follow up on every individual sighting is just crazy right. It's unfortunate that that kind of thing happens as often as it does. And so so with their limited staff and limited budget that is that is more and more limited every year because you know fewer people are buying hunting and fishing licenses. Patrick Tate: Yes. Caller: Are probably. New Hampshire Public Radio | Peter Biello: We mentioned that the eastern cougar and the Western cougar are they were separate eastern cougar believed to be extinct. 50 feet above the most. Incredible sighting and I called him the fish and game and they immediately sent me to a website to look at all the bobcat pictures. This is the exchange. Today on the exchange we discuss what residents may have been seeing and what breeding mountain lion pairs would mean for our ecosystem. John you're on the air. On a dirt road. I looked at the picture and asked me what do you see in the picture and I wrote back. Patrick Tate: Yes. Caller: Oh yeah. And I think this is a really interesting story for a couple of reasons one is that it proves what Pat was saying which that basically from New York state where its traces was really picked up on a game camera around Lake George all the way down to Connecticut there was numerous. Tate said that while a mountain lion sighting in New Hampshire isn't likely, it's not impossible. I just saw the head and the tail that was leaving. Patrick Tate: It's wow interesting that you brought this up because I've had people report I saw cardamom. No that's a little bit outside the range. From came from out west they tracked it all the way back to the Black Hills in the Dakotas. Thank you very much for being here. Patrick Tate: Well I've never seen an Easter cougar so I can't say when I've handled these 10 cougars and whatnot. 10 things to do in NH this weekend: Dartmouth Dance, Hamilton De Holanda & more, Turkish restaurant in the Upper Valley aims to help those affected by recent earthquakes, RFK Jr. tells NH crowd hes considering a presidential run, Epping woman pleads guilty to threatening Michigan election official in 2020. And the second question is this a behavior mountain lions exhibit. Caller: And then there's the Lily Pond Road and then there's a six foot tall fence. So so they're just a very resilient species and they're pretty they're pretty neat. The great thing about pictures isn't the animal itself it's the background. You need you need either a really good photograph or you need you know fresh scat that can be sent to a lab out West that can they can be identified there. 1957. Each person had their own copy and now it was identify the trees the species of tree matched. There are corollaries in other states. Numerous scat and fur specimens have been turned in as part of mountain lion report investigations; DNA identification has shown these submitted samples to be from domestic dog, coyote, bobcat andraccoon. N.H.'s Fish and Game department says there's no proof mountain lions live in the state, yet residents from Bedford to Berlin have been reporting sightings for years. And I can recall its information but I can't confirm or verify anything. Caller: I cannot recall or see the tail in my in my image of it. The big cat has been extinct here since the mid-1800s. My wife and I saw a mountain lion. And today we're talking about the mysterious elusive mountain line with folks who know something about it. And Rick van de Poll naturalist and founder of ecosystem management consultants of New England. You know I think it's there's a lady Holly Ernst out in California who has done a lot of the genotyping of mountain lions in Northern California the ones that are of course most people have heard about taking down hikers bikers etc. So that did it for me. Your support makes this news available to everyone. So if you were to ask me has a mountain lion ever passed through New Hampshire and been spotted by somebody who wasnt able to get hard evidence? Id personally be willing to say "probably, yes.". So I just brought up the bobcat thing because the location is fascinating to me that that that location we have Bobcats existing but that location we have a mountain lion report because it's a developed area and which brings me back to earlier what I had said it's a bouncing ball. Mike Guyton pressure was almost Greyhound like very muscular large back legs on it and the coloration on it was almost an orange brownish orange color and so I stop and I look at this thing in the field and as the animal looks at me the face was very chiseled definitely not a bobcat. NHPR is nonprofit and independent. Mountain lions when they show up they leave evidence. Thank you very much for listening. And that the Florida panther was more closely related to the eastern outline than the western mountain lion was. We'll hear more about the mountain lions impact and the role it plays in the ecosystem. So this whole illegal pet trade black market pro trade thing does does exist in a situation like that can happen. It was some sort of a Lion Mountain Lion animal. Thanks for a great thanks. And there are thousands of mountain lions killed every year legally through hunting, and there have been untold tens of thousands of mountain lions killed by hunters over the last hundred years, says Mark Elbroch, the Puma Program Director for Panthera, a global wild cat conservation organization, So even the folks who live with mountain lions still have a fancy and see something thats not there to me thats incredible.. You treat it as if it's a sincere situation. The western mountain lion lives in a more of a grassland open area now so to blend in with a very lighted situation here in the Northeast we are very shadowy dark situation because of the forest and our cats wear a darker brownish reddish color than what they were and they were also smaller than what the western mountain lion is. Why are there so many false positives? The DNA the DNA that they were able to pull from the cat suggested that it was a dispersed mountain lion that came. And Rick Van de Poll naturalist and founder of ecosystem management consultants of New England. Caller: Hey guys how you doing. That's next time on one day. Mike you're on the air. Patrick Tate: So it's interesting it's brought up. And now that everyone and their mother has a remote camera in their back yard its just so, so unlikely that there are resident, breeding mountain lions in New England that are living invisibly among us, he says, Its become Big Foot.. So when we talk about the threshold of evidence required to say for sure you have seen a mountain lion it is rather high. And in fact in 2011 when it was announced that the eastern cougar was officially extinct the reason that announcement was made is because they said really that it never existed. So one thing that I find fascinating about this Connecticut cat was six months between the New York situation where they found evidence of it too when it was hit by a motor vehicle. Peter Biello: Let's talk to Ron and where Ron thanks very much for calling. He studied Politics and Spanish at Bates College, and before reporting was variously employed as a Spanish teacher, farmer, bicycle mechanic, ski coach, research assistant, a wilderness trip leader and a technical supporter. I was a Bobcat we saw it and I have a picture of it. Rick van de Poll: Absolutely. There was no sign of it. You know perhaps poke around where you saw it and see if you can find a track. I've had a number of people call up and say I found a scout in the woods and I want it DNA identified. We're not in the woods. It's bigger but bigger and better world. However if if and when it does happen it takes up a lot of resources looking at that situation and identifying what's going on because when you start out you don't know it's a hoax. It's completely possible that it may have spent time in New Hampshire and went undetected but had it stayed in the area ultimately it would have been detected over time. So it's there was no question in my mind. From involving members in projects as local as cleaning up an area park or as far-reaching as bringing sight to the world's blind, Lions clubs have always . So there is definitely no downward pressure by anyone. However, as far as I can tell theres no Deep State Conspiracy to cover up a breeding population of cougars in the Granite State. Mountain lion or cat running across. But if you do if you think you're looking at a wild Puma their tail is very thick and especially in the winter is very thick and ponderous looking. If you go on YouTube and search mount lion Pat you can see people patent their hundred pound kiddie like its regular mascot cat. Deer Bear Moose Grey Wolf Coyote Foxes Fisher Mountain Lion NH Wildlife History. I mean I that said I've lived out west for nine years. As wildlife biologists, wed be fascinated to say 'look look what was found in our state.'. Through DNA they approximate area in the United States or North America where I was born. County road and all of a sudden a big cat jumps out of the woods over a stone wall stood in the middle of the dirt road as I rode towards it. You know one of the the biggest questions I have about that is it points to how much we don't know and if in fact we don't know enough. Thank you very much for that story really appreciate it. They reported seeing the big tail and everything everything. Despite numerous reports, the NH Fish and Game Department continues to have no physical evidence of mountain lion presence in the state. New Hampshire Public Radio | As I tried to get a picture of it so there was it was definitely we looked up all the pictures and it was definitely not a bobcat or anything else being it looked just like a mountain lion. What kind of animal is that. Something along those lines. Now that to me seemed to indicate that they had done the secondary workup that in my opinion proved the existence of probably a disperse or possibly from South Dakota like the one in 2011. Have you seen one. Well within there. Tonight, Sean McDonald investigates,. So I certainly can't dispute anything that they said there's no evidence for me to go by to verify or say what my thoughts are on the situation. It's good to talk to you. The species that once inhabited the Northeast, known as the eastern mountain lion, is now extinct. Thanks for your call. Peter Biello: Or send us an email exchange at an HP board. m from a weed family Automotive on store Street in Concord is serving the Concord area families automotive needs since 1995. Having not found any evidence is not the same as saying there are no mountain lions, its the same as saying we dont know. Share. So nowadays we think of this in the Northeast as crazy stuff that people have a mountain lion as a pet. And I was probably about a half a mile from downtown all village on the right. People have asked me about the genetics of eastern mountain lion. I think that you probably are. So that's the specimen that you find going long distances. We'll hear from her periodically through the show. So give us a call now. Do cougars live in New England? But having read a bit of information about his cougar there are a darker subspecies. And so a mountain lion is actually quite large right. He shifted gears in 2016 and began producing Outside/In, a podcast and radio show about the natural world and how we use it. His work has won him several awards, including two regional Edward R. Murrow awards, one national Murrow, and the Overseas Press Club of America's award for best environmental reporting in any medium. Administrative Links. Yes and you want to share what you learned. And so I just wanted to share my share my experience with you guys and it was pretty awesome to see if you get to see one albeit it was in the brush. There's never, ever, ever, ever been a documented case of a black mountain lion. Deer Bear Moose Wolves Fisher Mountain Lions. Want to put this to to Patrick Tate who may have heard some some info or info from listeners like you about these these these cats. And you know it's rather interesting because certainly there are those you as a case of mistaken identity or they wanted to see something that perhaps they actually didn't. Reviewing the evidence, the U.S. There was a lot of DNA evidence. Peter Biello: Well yeah. I wasn't employed as biologists at the time of a situation that's been reported but so I started digging into this report and spoke with another wildlife biologist with the agency and said Do you know anything about this. Patrick Tate: So I'm not sure what subspecies of cat they're using to differentiate by those markings but once she was describing the White other face in the black. Nicholas Handy can be reached at 924-7172 ext. Hunting is legal, but closely regulated by the state. Ive received pictures of dogs at odd angles, says Tate. Caller: I have yeah. The states never denied mountain lions are here, and theyve never admitted mountain lions are here. It was not a bobcat. I mean it wasn't your idea. So so it is possible in Maine to still to to to have one but you have to be sort of professional handler as it were. So I hate the idea that there's some sort of upward you know downward pressure from the bosses saying Don't you know don't tell about the mountain lions because it'll scare away the tourists. Peter Biello: What about the idea of tourism like us leaving aside the fact that it is not on the Endangered Species Act is it. Rick van de Poll: Well education is the real important thrust of of what all of us do as biologists and Game Managers and to make sure that a things like what Sam was saying that in spite of what you believe the mountain lions will not eat your children they will not steal your pets from your backyard and they will not necessarily be seen by you unless you're extremely lucky. Peter Biello: And then it ran away okay. I mean so what what is the practical change that it would bring to New Hampshire if any. I live pretty much on the town line of Greenfield just a couple of miles down in the Greenfield. The trouble with accepting every reported sighting as a confirmed mountain lion is that there are so many mistaken identifications. And because you know things flow downhill and I was pushed to go investigate it more and met with the individual two or three times and there was a bunch of inconsistencies about the photograph. Peter Biello: This is the exchange on an PR. This is not the same as saying that there has never been a mountain lion seen in New Hampshire. And the cougar embodies that. Listeners give us a call if you'd like. And still the the folks there did weren't able to come up with it with 100 percent certainty what deposited that scat. So maybe a good pet for you but not for your neighbor if you just stop by unannounced. There have been several sightings of mountain lions in New Hampshire recently. So here in New Hampshire when a person turns in something that the Department believes is possible mountain lion and believes it should be investigated further. So it is possible to see male Mountain lions roam into the northeast - there was one hit by a car in CT a number of years back - but we don't have a breeding population of Mountain lions in New England. Caller: And the more I thought about it the color of it it was definitely not a bobcat. Pelosi story here we go. So they're scary. As recently as 2011 there was one young male mountain lion that cruised all the way from the black hills of South Dakota, up over the Great Lakes, down through New Yorkgetting spotted all. So there's even debate about that very subject. Rick van de Poll: Well I didn't. SUE Morse naturalist and science director for the organization keeping track. Rick van de Poll: Rick van de Poll so I was a non-believer as well. Which brings us to the next question, what are the odds that some of these reported sightings (which, when I posted about this on twitter, I immediately started to get as well) are actually people seeing a mountain lion? Really appreciate it. So. He played a pivotal role and he battled for recognition. But no proof was offered. But you've done some reporting on this. Pat humans people leave deer carcasses up in trees. If you believe you have seen a mountain lion and want to report it to NH Fish and Game, please contact the Wildlife Division at (603) 271-2461 or wildlife@wildlife.nh.gov to request an observation report form. 44-H Links. We'd love to have you in the queue. But if you were to get Western dispersing mountain lions just would just sort of expanding into New Hampshire. So what counts as verifiable evidence? JavaScript must be enabled for some features to display properly. Let's talk to Bob in Laconia Bob. Peter Biello: This is the exchange on an HD PR fine Peter Biello and today we're talking with folks who can tell us about the mysterious elusive mountain line and whether or not it is actually here in New Hampshire. Enable JavaScript by changing your browser options, and then try again. Let's look for other evidence. Mountain lions (especially males) have incredibly large ranges that they defend from rivals. Peter Biello: And Carl before you continue I think Patrick Tate just give me a second. Really appreciate you guys being here as well. Mountain lions ( Puma concolor) are one of the six native species of wild cats in North America. You're on the air. Peter Biello: So if they were female mountain lions here they would be more males just because that's what they're looking for. I was at the Sentinel as a reporter there for about four years and during that time I probably wrote close to a half dozen stories or so on this topic including a lengthy feature at one point that in which I spoke to several people from around the banana region claimed to have seen mountain lions that at one time or another. So that that's more or less I think why I'm here and why I got into this in nineteen ninety nine I found a what appeared to be a print of a mountain lion and that was in the Osprey mountains and I thought well OK that's that's a print. And it came out we could see it had and we could see its long swooping tail. And that's this morning at 10:00 here on NH PR. Have it reported down in the Keene area. Is this kind of a typical story. He told me that on one of his many scouting trips for Black Bear he found a deer carcass up in a tree. BRADFORD, N.H. - All that snow in parts of the Northeast has more than just kids jumping for winter joy. NH Fish and Game relies on physical evidence to answer questions about the presence or absence of mountain lion in the state. But the state always denies it, and none of us know why they deny it. We had six copies printed out each. John thanks. About Us Media Kit Calendar of Events Volunteer Visit Learn Events Membership Support Your Visit BUY TICKETS Know Before You Go Directions and Information Our Animals Live Animal Exhibit Trail Hours and Admission Calendar of Events So take care of this problem. Mountain lions don't usually travel more than 100 miles from where they are born. It's not an emerging endangered species no work no there are there are populations in specific states so the Florida panther is is an endangered species that sub population is in fact listed under the Endangered Species Act. If it's just in the middle of a greenfield you can't prove anything. Today she talked with us a little bit before the show about why the mountain line is so compelling and why we want it to be part of our world. Rick van de Poll: Well the mountain lion of course has been sort of an enigma in the wildlife suite for years and years. The supervisor that hired me in the game division in October of 1978 passed on to me this whole big folder of mountain lion information and sightings going back probably a couple decades. I'm Peter Biello. Let's talk to Mike in Webster. That's what we're seeing is dispersing mountain lions from the West who are just making their way through. So it's six months of a large large predatory animal that moves great distances on the landscape that is not known if it went northeast west Salt and how many circles it did. It's you know I recognized their report and. And a lot of people around the county airport have seen a lot of pilots coming in said they saw huge. HOLDERNESS, N.H. (AP) Two of the known mountain lions in New Hampshire have spent their 15 years in close proximity to humans. Is there something particularly hospitable about New Hampshire Forests that make them want to come here. Well just that I have evidence and it was not it was denied by fishing game at the time and I you know there's I don't need to prove to anybody that I saw one just like some of your callers said okay. And what was really remarkable about the whole thing was I was maybe a half mile down on all buildings. How to Report a Possible Mountain Lion Sighting. Patrick Tate: I've had hunters hang deer carcasses forbidding wildlife entries. They lived perhaps elsewhere in New England and they were just passing through and happened to have an encounter of some sort. Thank you for visiting the New Hampshire Fish and Game Department website. Peter Biello: Well Mike thanks very much for sharing your story. Peter Biello: Well Karl Jarvis a former reporter for The King's son Nile thank you very much for for calling in and sharing your perspective and to his point Patrick T. I mean yes we haven't met the scientific burden of proof here in New Hampshire as far as physical evidence is is concerned but is there room at Fish and Game For A kind of an informal nod to all of the people who have somehow convinced themselves and possibly some others that yeah there may be occasional sightings here.